HomeMy WebLinkAbout09/15/83 SPECIAL HEARING ~
BREMERTON CITY COUNCIL
SEPTEMBER 15, 1983 ~ ~ ~ ~
5:00 PM
Tape 1 The Bremerton City Council held a public hearing with the Department
of Transportation on Septmber 15, 1983, 5:00 PM, in the City Council
Chambers. Present: Council President Art Anderson, E. Sturdivant
Clyde Pachek, Spencer Horning, Roy Mosely, Phil Drouin, Bill Amo, Russ Johnson,
Jim Adrian, City Clerk Kalthleen McCluskey, Mayor Morrie Dawkins.
Meeting was opened with Pledge of Allegiance lead by President Art Anderson.
Art Anderson introduced Mr. Don Sorte, Assistant Secretary of Transportation.
Mr. Sorte in turn introduced his staff, Capt. N. H. Tracy, Washington State
Ferries and Tim Payne, Planner for the Department of Transportation.
Mr. Sorte referred to charts which outlined the traffic generated through-
out the different areas served and the cost ratio for each area.
The super class of ferry costs $560./per hour to run and the Issaquah
class costs $340/per hours to run. The $220 difference is very significant
for operating and providing services to Bremerton. The vehicle traffic
gives more revenue than the walk,ns, the Winslow vehicle traffic is almost
double what Bremerton's is, necessitating the use of the jumbo ferries.
In 1979 the economy turned down, the Hood Canal Bridge blew awa~ and
Mount St. Helens blew affecting tourist traffic. On the Bremerton run
vehicular traffic has continued to decline. He stated that the Issaquah
class boat is almost perfectly matched to the capacity needed even during
the peak hours.
City Clerk, Kathleen McCluskey read a letter submitted by Marty Comfort
from the architect who designed the Issaqqah class ferry. L. Paul Zankich
stated in his letter that if the Washington State Ferries is operating the
Issaquah class of vessel on the Bremerton run above the design speed of 16 knots
they are causing (1) a great increase in wave propagation, (2) great increase
in fuel consumption, (3) increase in vibration and early fatigue of components
due to vibration.
Marty Comfort 2012 Enetai Beach, expressed his concern why the ferries
could not be reduced in speed from Bremerton to red bouy #6 which is at the
entrance to Rich Passage on Westbound trips and on west sound trips why they
can't reduce speed at the mouth of Rich PaGsage to the Bremerton dock. By doing
this it would cost about 5 minutes of time and save on fuel.
Don Sorte explained that the City Council had received a letter explaining
their position on this issue. He stated that the boats are slowed down if
there is a situation where it could create a danger or damage to the area.
Captain N. Tracy, Washington State Ferries, stated that when the Issaquah class
ferry enters the Rich Pass area they are continuously slowed. The average
speed of this class boat going back and forth between Seattle and Bremerton
comes up less than wh~t the Hyak use to make. These trips are starting to be
52-55 minutes. He stated that the operation directives for these boats
takes everyones welfare into consideration.
Russ Johnson then expressed his concern regarding the number of times the boat
is slowed and them started up again - if the wake is no differen~ then
why slow down for the fish pens and not the people along the shoreline,
if there is no difference in the wake. Capt. Tracy stated that he personally
did not see any difference between the Hyak and Issaquah class in relation
to ferry wake. Mr. Sorte handed out copies of the letter the Department
of Transportation sent to the City Council regarding their position on the
ferry wake issue.
Bill Amo asked Mr. Sorte the question that over the last several years
there had been a decline in service to Bremerton, schedules as not as good
as use to be, smaller boats, at the same time getting better on Winslow run.
Now, with the enhancement of the run I would guess that the numbers
of people riding the ferry would increase. Likewise with each degradation
of service the ridership would go down. People find out it is not worth it
and drive around. Mr. Sorte responded that they have to look at the cost,
which vary on different runs for different services. Comparing the Wi~$1ow.
Seattle and Bremerton-Seattle runs right now it costs the state $1.78/per person
on the Bremerton run and it cost 47¢ on the Winslow run. Winslow riders pay
the same fare across as the people from Bremerton. What the Department does
is to try and balance the service throughout the system - give the people throughout
the system the optimum of service.
September 15, 1983
Tape 1
Page 2
Mr. Sorte restated that the problem of overloads is looked at carefully
noting that Bremerton overloads are barely over the 100 vehicle limit
and would not justify the super ferry class which carries 160 vehicles -
considering the difference of $220/per hour more for the super ferry
than the Issaquah class.
Art Anderson asked Mr. Sorte if having cars left at the Seattle dock
was a common pactice of other runs? Mr. Sorte indicated that on certain
days it would occur throughout the system. He stated that the system was
built to meet the highest peaks of commuter traffic.
Bill Amo asked Mr. Sorte if he knew how many vehicles andwalk-on passengers
were using the ferries several years past in comparison to today? Mr. Rayne
indicated that Bremerton since 1980 has decreased at the rate of 6% per
year. Art Anderson asked if that was the time the new ferries were brought
on. Mr. Payne indicated no. Mr. Amo indicated that we still have the
same number of citizens here and approximately the same number are working
in Seattle but that the system has so been degraded that they choose to
drive around. Mr. Sorte asked if Mr. Amo would explain what "degrading"
meant. Mr. Amo responded with (1) cost went sky high, (2) schedules were
changed, (3) went to small boat, (4) no night service - plus others, none
of which seemed to enhance the system. Mr. Sorte answer that in actual
dollars the fares have increased since 1971 but in constant dollars the
farry fares have decreased for both passenger and vehicles through the
system. So you are receiving service now at a lower constant dollar price
than in 1971. A person can ride from Bremerton to Seattle, as a walk-on
for 87¢, where you can get refreshments, read a paper, relax, do some work,
in comparison if you get off the boat and get on a bus you pay 90~ and
have no additional services.
Art Anderson stated he did not know what the legislatun~s intent was or
is but at one time the Ferry system was just an extension of the highway
system. If they have the same philosophy and getting funded accordingly
I don't know why we should suffer at all. Even if you are subsidizing
Bremerton services should not be declining.
E. Sturdivant expressed his concern relating to the double schedule
weekday - weekend. If you made an adjustment in three ferry run departures
from Seattle or Bremerton and adjusted 5 or 10 minutes that would leave
you three different ferry times and by an * you could put the schedule in
one column instead of two separate ones. By personal experience recently
he faced a situation where he thought he had the right schedule and in fact
when heading for the ferry missed it. He stated his concern for the newcomer
to the area who was not familiar with searching for the right section (weekday-
weekend). We don't know how many cars we loose because of the overloads
and scheduling. Mr. Payne explained the reason for the two separate columns
and that reason being accommodating for the weekend events at the Kingdome.
Jim Adrian acknowledged having heard Mr. Sorte and Mr. Berentson speak at a
Chamber of Commerce meeting and some information presented at that meeting
was some overload data and Mr. Berentson indicated that it was higher than
he expected, indicated that data would jeopardize ferry ridership and it seems
to me that it would jeopardize the economic base in this community because
people will not come over to our community if they have to wait for the ferry.
Based on the data recently received from the Ferry office there has been
2-3 overloads on every weekend for last 8 weekends. It does not seem to appear
that any corrective action has been taken. Tim Payne stated that the ferry
system is presently at the peak of the year. There isn't anything that~can be
done to eliminate this. Jim Adrian stated that he did not recall similar
numbers of overloads when the Yakima class of boat was on the run. What happened
to all of the big ferries after the Issaquah class came? Tim Payne answered
relating back to budget and cost of running the system. Boats are used
to relieve breakdowns, emergencies such as the shutting of the Hood Canal Bridge.
To have a large ferry on standby costs money.
Art Anderson made comment that it seems like the whole peninsula is getting
squeezed down on people trying to get over and out of it and there has been
no relief - what are your plans to relieve this? These overloads are affecting
our economy and what is the legislature going to do to stop this? Has the
legislature been asked for more money? Mr. Sorte responded that no such request
had been made for additional funding. He also indicated that the fuel costs
were at the $1.00 level compaired to 11~ per gallon in 1971, so management
of the boats is critical. Have begun re-examining the long range plan for
the ferry system. Data will be available to the public and it will be brought
out to the people via public hearinqs in November of thi~.year.. The ~itizens
will have the opportunity to commen~ on the services of ~ne system ana how
September 15, 1983
Tape 1
Page 3
they feel it can be improved. Mr. Sorte restated that there is no easy
answer to solve the overload problems. The resources of boats available
this summer were stretch very thin for a number of reasons.
Representative of 23rd District, Paul Zellinsky, Sr., supported additional
study by an outside firm or organization to answer the "wake problem" once
and for all. He stated his position against the Issaquah class of boat, the
crowding and limitations they demand. He does not believe that by curtailing
the services and raising the rates will solve our problems as citizens.
At some point we are going to have to take a took at the Hyak class of boat
previously used on the Bremerton/Seattle run, possibly looking into the
Transportation budget. The legislators from this area will be looking at the
budget - (1) he would like that to be given serious consideration and
(2) would like to see the issue of the wake put to rest.
Representative 35th District, Doug Sayan, stated it seems to be a question
of service and cost. When you talk about demands for service be prepared
to support the cost.
E. Sturdivant asked Mr. Sorte what happened to the dress code today?
He expressed his concern for the sloppy manner in which some employees
are dressed and is there anything being done about it? Mr. Sorte indicated
he would not defend the appearance of every ferry worker, however, the
new employees are being put through a training course and existing employees
will be put through it also. They will receive some public relations skills,
safety training, to teach them to deal with the public. A new program promoting
new uniforms for the ferry workers is also 6~gun. The Ferry system receives
lette~when people wish to complain but rarely do they receive letters commending
the employees for the good things they are doing. ~lr. Anderson stated he felt
it should be up to the State management of the Ferry system to indicate the
code of dress and if not what is holding them back, the Union? Mr. Sorte
stated that they are under union contract at the present time and are currently
renegotiating - the terms of reimbursement for uniform dress are being followed
and he agreed that there was room for improvement.
Mr. Sheldon Levin, 5654 Watauga Beach Dr. E., Port Orchard, expressed his concern
of the "wake" presently being generated. He has resided at this residence for
13 years and he has observed that there is definitely a larger wake with the
Issaquah class of ferry than the Hyak class. He asked why the Ferry System
could not follow the example of the Navy - who slow down their ships at f
high tide and only at low tide do they run the ships at high speed (referring
to naval activity off Fox Island in Carr Inlet). If the tide reaches 10 feet and
higher - then slow the ferries down.
Captain Tracy responded that the ferries are presently doing just as he requested.
If the tide is l0 feet or over the boats are slowed all the way through Rich
Passage and these steps were taken for the same reasons as stated above. The
Hyak was also slowed at a 10 foot tide through Rich Passage. The Walla and
Spokane had to be slowed to ½ speed from the fish pens all the way around Point
White (1980). That policy directive is in effect right now.
Ted Burney, property owner Enetai Beach, a Marine Science teacher at the
Bremerton's high school, expressed his concern that the wake problem has to
be addressed. The amount of energy from the Issaquah Class ferry is very
powerful and not just at high tide. Damage is being done to the clam beds
as well. On the high bulkheads it eats out underneath, at low bulkheads the
tide pushes aggregate and sand up into the yards. He supported that the
question of the wake must be resolved and ecologically it may be a long time
before the extent of damage that is being done to the intertidal organisms is known.
Bill Amo, expressed his concern that when he commuted several years ago on
the Hyak class the ferries were crowded during the peak commuter times and
recently during those same times the boats do not appear to be crowded at all.
By decreasing the services are we not also decreasing the numbers of riders?
He stated he believed that Bremerton should be serving as a satelite for Seattle
as far as a bedroom community, we need the development of condominiums downtown
where people could commute to Seattle - with the transportation between the two
points now not many people want to invest in that type of investment.
There must besome~ pointers you can give us that we can do to either get better
schedules or better boats to some how improve the service, it can't continue to
go down. Mr. Sorte responded that the Transportation Commission is not anxious
to raise fares either. At the time the ferry system presented their proposal
for a 9% fareincrease to incr~se the level of service, DOT cbt it
back to 6½%. When they do that the Ferry system has to re-evaluate ~he proposed
increases and do as much as possible with the lower percentage.
September 15, 1983
Tape 1
Page 4 If we keep fares increasing about the same rate as consumer price index
the effect on traffic is about neutral, if we go above consumer price index
we loose 1/10 of 1% 10 for 1% above the CPI in traffic. If we go below it
we tend to encourage traffic back to the system. If the fares are dropped
it would generate more traffic, which would put more pressure on the existing
system, so when we decrease our revenue more services have to be provided -
the system is searching for an equilibrium where optimum service can be provided
for the optimum fare. If the traffic picks up in Bremerton and we do hit
that level where constantly overloading on the boat~and can recover on fares
to cover the additional $220 cost/then consideration may be given to changing
the service to Bremerton, but until that occurrs we cannot do it.
Russ Johnson stated his concern for the walk-on passengers. If the fare were
cut 50% would you get 2 to 3 times more riders?~ Mr. Sorte responded that
if the fares were dropped way down you would get more riders but less revenue.
Tim Payne explained elasticity ratio is 2/10 per walk-on passenger ~n that
if fares are dropped 1% they pick up only 2/10 of a percent. Mr. Johnson raised the
question that if fares are raised then you would decrease ridership and Tim
Payne said it was just the opposite. If fares are raised 1% you loose 2/10%
in traffic which means a fare increase of 1% wilt~ generate additional revenue.
Tim Payne illustrated the fact that the corridores (highways) to Seattle are
becoming more attractive in travel time required between Bremerton and Seattle.
Also, automobiles are available with better gas mileage making it more economical
to drive around than take the ferry. A ferry boat cannot compete with that time
as it is being shortened.
Art Anderson asked Mr. Sorte if it were not so that the Issaquah class ferry
was meant to be on a shorter run rather than the 18 mile run? Captain Tracy
responded that if cost effective they were capable of being put on any run.
Tim Payne also added that the traffic trend since 1980 has been on a decline.
E. Sturdivant pointed out that the ferry system was part of the entire
transportation system - we should be encouraging people to ride the ferries
which are much safer, accident wise.
Janet Martinez, 1308 Pointdexter, asked if the question regarding the
damage to the innertidal marine life was specifically answered? Art Anderson
felt this was not something that possibly could be answered at this time.
Arnold Allan, Point White, Bainbridge Island, In 1979 when the Walla Walla
was on the run, we lost our clam beds. Contact was made with Ferry officials
and after investigation a directive was given that the ferries would be slowed
down in Rich Passage, which they did and it helped immensely. Mr. Allan
thanked Captain Tracy for the policy that is now the order for skippers to slow
down in Rich Bassage. This has really helped. The skippers may feel that
low tide is not a problem but it is for Point White property owners.
Several owners have suffered beach errosion - there will not be any Point White
if this continues for a few years. It is understood that the service to
Bremerton is necessary but believe a small adjustment in the schedule to slow
down would help. He expressed his appreciation for the cooperation that has been
given.
Art Anderson asked Mr. Allen if what he said did infact support the fact
that the Issaquah class boat did cause damage. Mr. Allan responded with a "yes".
Marvin Swanberg, Wataugga Beach - resided there since 1942. He presented
a elaborate set of pictures showing the wake doming in, the damage that is
being done to his bulkhead. It is washing away his beach and undermining the
bulkhead. It is both the super ferry class and Issaquah class. The pictures
are all documented with time, dates and what direction the ferry was traveling.
Fred Walls, 3338 Beach Drive E., Port Orchard, expressed his concern regarding
damage also occurring in his area, ½ mile west of the Waterman Dock, washing
the gravel and sand farther out on the beach. He hasnepaired his bulkhead twice
from being undermined and finally had contractor to dig down in the hardpan
to put in the new bulkhead. As long as the Issaquah class ferry is running at
the speed it is, this problem will continue. He has been a resident at this
address for 40 years and rocks which were never evident before are now being
exposed (2 -3 feet high). He also stressed the importance of the ferries
reducing their speed along this stretch also to help stop this on going damage.
September 15, 1983
Tap~_ 1
Pag'e 5
Marty Comfort gave some background on his research into the wake effect
of the hull of the super ferries and the Issaquah class and what makes
the wave action as the hull goes through the water and its effect when it
is delivered on the shore. From his study he related that the designs of the
hulls were for specific speeds. He indicated that the Issaquah was not a
bad hull if it is operated at 16 knotts.
Dave Horngren, member of Bremerton Chamber of Commerce, stated he has been
working on the ferry schedules and fares for about 4 years. He stated his
concern as to ticket cost as well as the boats. It appears that we are going
down and there is no bottom. About 2 years ago some promotional aspects were
discussed. One of the recommendations from the Chamber was that the commuter
tickets had no end. They felt this might help - keeping the ridership up.
Also heard from Alice Collinwood that there would be promotional fares that would
be taking place in the hours of the day when the boats were not at their maximum
use it might be in the morning or afternoon. The figures that have been given
about the additional traffic over the Narrows Bridge in Tacoma is around 33-37%
in the last two years. As far as highways - $600,000 for a ½ mile surfacing for
a road so the cost that is going into the highway system could be going into
the ferry system. We do not hear of the additional cost of the highway from here
to Tacoma. Hopefully we can get some kind of promotional fares going.
The biggest area for additional increase for the ferries is fr~m Port Orchard
to Silverdale.
E. Sturdivant - asked about the plans to renovate or relocate the ferry
terminal - is that dead? Mr. Sorte responded that it is on the shelf due to
cost involved. The terminal is not owned but leased from Mr. Bremer.
Mr. Sturdivant asked if the Department had any clout with Mr. Bremer so that
the leaking roof can be repaired. Mr. Sorte indicated that some repair has
been done and most of the problem has been resolved.
Art Anderson asked if the attitude for the future development of the
Bremerton terminal changed about the time Mr. Berentson came into office.
Mr. Sorte could not respond.
Bill Amo - indicated that Mr. Sorte had indicated that people could get on
the ferry and have a cup of coffee and relax and the cost of concession products
are so high because they are dealing with a captive audience and they bid for
the right to put that service ther~that some how it detracts from the ferry
system itself with the outrageous prices and possibly the ferry system would do
better if they had control over prices. If you do, maybe you have allowed them
to get out of hand. Mr. Sorte answered that at the last contract they were giving
the system 13½% of their gross sales, the new contract they bid they are going
to give 26½%. This increase will bring in $1.6 million dollar more per year
from that consession which is equal to a 4% ferry increase. They could increase
the ferry fares 4% and drop the consession prices down a little but it is really
a "catch 22". Bill Amo asked if they had any control over the pricing?
Mr, Sorte indicated they do have an influence and can discuss it with them.
Mr. Amo stated he believed that the system had built its own trap.
Art Anderson asked about the comfort on the ferries. It appears a few more
tables have been added - however the height of the table is in no relation to
height of seat and the food service and how it operates it is not appropriate -
when you order food they yell it out a door to let you know it is ready -
just no sense to the system. Is there anything in the plan to make them more
comfortable? Mr. Sorte indicated he did not want to defend the comfort of the
new ferries, however there is a limited amount of money to put into the boats
and they do go to the mechanical aspects first - must keep them running and
have experience some real problems and must meet Coast Guard standards.
Phil Drouin - expressed the fact that he could not think of a thing to complain
about. He indicated that he has riden the ferries for over 50 years and all
of a sudden it has come to his attention~that the seats aren't very comfortable.
He ~as always so busy looking at the scenery that he never noticed whether they
were a problem or not. The cost is comparative to driving around in him car
and is not near as relaxing. The one problem that does concern him is the
traffic lining up and blocking traffic. There is a hazard for the safety of
the citizens~ Would hope that in your future talks with Mr. Bremer that something
can be worked out to aleviate this problem and provide a safer traffic flow.
Beverly Green, Watauga Beach - believe that we have a white elephant that no
one knows what to do with it. In regard to the wake, she personally took around
September 15, 1983
Tap~e t &2
Page 6
a petition and obtained 69 signatures which were sent to the Ferry system.
The sealife is disappearing, bulkheads are being damaged and she also supported
a study or if they would just come out and look at the damage being done
by these waves.
Russ Johnson - at some time in the future Bremerton will be embarking on some
downtown redevelopment, when that takes place to what extent would the
Ferry system participate, either in fixing up the terminal, relocating?
Mr. Sorte indicated he could not answer that specifically, but that their
policy was to be "good neighbors" throughout the system and have worked with
people at various terminals, modified plans, made parking lots available for
people, and have already talked with people from Kitsap County about things
they can do. He further stated that if funds are available improvements
can be made a~d they would be very interested in sitting down and talking
about that. ~. Johnson asked who would be the person to appraoch w~th such a
plan or suggestion and Mr. Sorte responded that it would probably be Mr.
Berentson. Mr. Sorte asked if any formal plans could be presented to the
State in November it would help them in their future planning.
E. Sturdivant asked Mr. Sorte after hearing testimony from people who have
lived along a beach area for 30-40 years, with picture documentation as to
what has been happening to their beach and/or bulkheads what would the
State's position be if a suit was brought against the system - it seems
that the State Attorney's office would be very concerned about this?
Mr. Sorte stated he felt they would bqthey have enough law suits to take
care of them for some time. The problem of the wake has been studied
and they may go back and take another look but do not believe there is a
simple answer to it.
OrvilleSchultz, Enetai Beach, resident there for 50 years, added that
his main concern was the safety of the people on the beach. This summer
he had to rescue two of his grandchildren after a pram that they were in
was tipped over by a wave after the ferry had gone by - the Issaquah
class ferry. He also urged the Ferry Captains to slow down at high tides.
His residence is located on a low bank waterfront and his gravel/sand
is just a foot away from his grass, pushing it up closer to the land area.
Russ Johnson asked if the Round Trip ticket is being done away with?
Mr. Sorte said yes - they are going to a computer ticket system. The
ticketless system will be a significant economic saving. The commutor books
will still be available. They believe that the new system will be as
efficient if not better than the present system. Art Anderson expressed
his concern that the traffic will not be ~acked up for half a mile.
Art Anderson thanked Mr. Sorte, Captain Tracy and Tim Payne for being
present for the hearing and getting some of the Concerns aired and
hopefully serious consideration can be given to the testimony given.
Mr. Sturdivant also expressed his appreciation for their responding
to our letter of request.
Mr. Sorte indicated that they do like to get before the people and
hear the concerns and share data that explains what the ferry system is
and what they do.
Meeting adjourned 7:15 PM.
KATHLEEN McCLUSKEY, CIT'Y CLERK
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N~I~R~'~3~ ~OUNCIt I~RESIDENT